Since I found nothing in the speech of the hon. Member for Ton-bridge (Mr. Hornby) with which I disagreed, I hope he will forgive me if I do not follow his arguments.
Perhaps he would agree with me that some of the speeches which we have heard against the Common Market seem to divide into two distinct categories—rather like people who go into a garage and consider whether they wish to buy a second-hand car. Some may say, "I do not like the design of this model, and in any case the works or the steering are defective and the engine is the wrong size." On that basis, they would not wish to buy it. But there are others who will look at it and say, "I like the car but the trouble is, first it is too expensive, and, second, I do not like the look of the salesman because he is wearing a blue rosette." That is a much less effective argument.
What strikes me about hon. Members like the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) is that they try to combine both arguments. They say, first, "We do not want to buy the thing", and then spend a good deal of time explaining how it is too expensive and why they do not like the people who are selling it. One does not go on to the second argument at all if one accepts the basic proposition that one does not want what is being sold. Those who accept that argument I have always respected, although I disagree with that view.
Like all other hon. Members, I have received a large amount of mail on the Common Market—not necessarily from constituents but from people who feel strongly on it. One letter went roughly as follows: "Both Mr. Heath and Mr. Wilson have tried to sell the country down the river at different times. You Liberals are different: you have been consistently honest. You have tried to sell the country down all the river all the time." [Laughter.] I admire that backhanded compliment.
Of course it is quite true that the Liberal party at least has had a consistent record on this subject. This is not just a matter of recent politics but stems from a basic philosophical view of the kind of society which we want to create, a view that internationalism begins on one's own doorstep and that if one is an internationalist, one must be prepared to join and co-operate and pool sovereignty with one's nearest neighbours.
If hon. Members want to go right back beyond the 1950s and the discussion over the formation of the E.E.C., I have even managed to pick up a quotation from Mr. Gladstone in 1887, when he was arguing:We are part of the community of Europe and we must do our duty as such.
That remains basically the view of my party at the moment.
It is highly significant, whatever view the Conservative Party or Labour Party may have taken since the E.E.C. was formed, that both parties in the last ten years, when they have had to take up the reins of office and preside over the Treasury and the Departments concerned with foreign and economic affairs, have, whatever they have said when out of office, come inescapably to the conclusion that Britain's interests lie inside the E.E.C.
If I have one criticism of the way in which this debate has been presented and the way in which the Government have argued their case, it is that the political importance of what we are doing has been under-valued, under-estimated and under-stressed all along.
Fundamentally, when one argues about this whole subject with people outside the House, and particularly with ones' constituents, one sees that the great divide boils down to the difference between those who accept some pooling of national sovereignty for the greater good and those who do not. That seemed to lie at the bottom of the arguments adduced by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). That is the fundamental difference of opinion.
I respect those, particularly in the Labour Party who want to remain, as they believe, in total control of our economy; those who want to create asort of fortress Britain. They want to control the outflow of capital, build up our own economy on a Socialist basis and feel free to divert and distribute wealth in such a way that a great deal is done to alleviate the problems of the poorer sections of the community.
I understand this argument, but I disagree with it, particularly when I consider the position of some of the poorer parts of this country. I remind hon. Members that we are now talking about poor parts and not poor people because there are poor parts of Britain nowadays.
This point is brought home if one looks at the results of a study submitted to the Scottish Office a few weeks ago by the Centre for Urban Studies in Birmingham. It covered the whole of the Clyde-side area, including Glasgow. It revealed the disgraceful statistic that 40 per cent of the heads of households in that area have a take-home pay of less than £10 a week. What a disgraceful state of affairs in 1971.
My resolution is not the Socialist one of, "Let us do something by redistributing wealth". The only way to tackle this problem is to create greater prosperity in the country as a whole and remedy the state of affairs that we have had for the last 10 years. Only then shall we be able to redistribute the greater cake that has been created.
If, on the other hand, we do not create a larger cake in the first place, we shall not have the basic prosperity with which to build the schools, houses and so on that are necessary to improve the lot of those who live in the poorer parts of Britain and we shall not have the money with which to pay the welfare and other benefits. If those people had had a share in the increase of average wages which their counterparts have had in the E.E.C. since 1956, they would be in a happier position today.
Although, therefore, I appreciate the argument of those who take this different view, I do not accept it, and the only thing of which I disapprove in the present argument of the left of the Labour Party—which, in view of the bench I occupy, I am used to hearing—is the application by the Tribune Group for a three-line Whip to be placed on Labour hon. Members on this issue. That is an extraordinary feature of our current politics.
I come to the legitimate and understandable fears that I have found among the people with whom I have discussed this issue, particularly in Scotland, where, it must be conceded, public opinion is more anti-Common Market than it is in Britain as a whole. This is understandable because their basic argument is that they have suffered over the years from their remoteness from the centre of power and Government. They are concerned lest a change of emphasis to Brussels will mean this remoteness being accentuated.
This argument ignores the very substantial impact of the regional policies which the E.E.C. has been following. The countries of the Community have had to tackle problems far worse in many respects than those we face in Scotland. Think, for example, of Southern Italy. Through the Development Fund and individual national policies—these policies were outlined in this House in the July debate— they have done a great deal, by concentrating on regional policies, to overcome this problem of remoteness.
I have found, in my limited experience in the Council of Europe, a great deal of economic thinking among Ministers in Europe about the need to pull what are called the peripheral areas of Europe into the prosperity of Europe as a whole by, for example, the development of improved transport links.
Provided we have a Government at home who are prepared to invest in such things as adequate transport links, I do not fear the physical remoteness of any part of this country from the centre of Europe. Indeed, those areas of Britain. like Scotland, which are today suffering from high unemployment levels, are the very areas which are the most attractive for investment, for they have spare labour. The prosperous parts of the E.E.C. are having to import labour. Some parts of those prosperous areas are suffering from a considerable labour shortage. Alas, we in Scotland have no labour shortage.
I find that there are now industries waiting, in this period of uncertainty, to see whether we intend to go into the E.E.C. before coming to investment decisions. Once we decide to join, there will go ahead with their investment programmes. [Interruption.] Can any hon. Member tell me of an industry which is waiting for us to decide to stay out ofthe Community before launching an investment programme?
To those in Scotland who are concerned about the effects of our joining the E.E.C., this larger grouping, I say that there is no genuine analogy between what is happening now and what happened at the time of, and as a result of, the Act of Union in 1707. That was an historic mistake which I believe could be put right even now. That is history, though it is worth bearing in mind that when the Act of Union was passed, the Scottish Parliament was abolished. Instead of leaving it, so that it might be a focus of political opinion, we abolished it, and now we in Westminster push legislation through for Scotland. We administer the Scottish Office, but we have no Executive.
That is not happening on this occasion. We are not abolishing Parliament at Westminster and transferring its power to Brussels. I hope that we shall develop our internal policies and parliamentary procedures so as to make more effective the representation of the needs of Scotland. None of that would be nullified by our decision to join the E.E.C.
Too much of the discussion in this great debate, as it has been called, has centred, understandably, on the present terms, and little has been said about what will be the political future of Europe. What is the view of this country about the role that we shall have to play and the kind of policies that we want to see Europe pursue? In asking these questions, one is questioning what Europe will be like in 10 or 20 years' time. That is the way in which my party and colleagues consider the matter.
I feel that it is inevitable—I hope that this will happen—that the European Community will take on board decision-making and defence policies, and I disagree with some of the theorising that has been indulged in about defence. [Interruption.] Let me make it clear that I disagree with those who argue that we want to see the development of an independent European nuclear power as the future defence rôle of Britain. I see developing in the next 10 or 20 years precisely the same argument, but in a European context, as we had 10 years ago, in a British context, about whether there should be a separate nuclear capability.
I hope that the E.E.C. will move in the direction of using its unity as a forcefor the encouragement of detente in Europe, particularly in terms of nuclear disengagement. I hope, too, that in thinking of the future, we in this country and Europe as a whole—I know that several Governments in Europe are committed to this view—will develop the democratic institutions of the E.E.C.
The Foreign Secretary tried to ride off the question of the national veto when he was asked about this by my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I do not hold the veto up as a great virtue to the British people. It is not wise to stress that at the end of the day we can use our veto. That is not my party's attitude to the kind of Europe we want to see.
We must develop voting procedures, make the Council of Ministers more authoritative over the Commission and move towards a directly elected parliament, and I hope that developments of this kind will come in for a great deal of discussion in the coming years.
Looking to the future, and bearing in mind the remarks of the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor), I very much hope that it will be a Europe committed to a cohesive rôle in ending the disparity of wealth between the richer and poorer parts of the world. One must consider the record of the E.E.C. in this connection. Only this summer it was commended by U Thant for its decision to admit, duty-free, certain manufactured goods from the under-developed world. The E.E.C. has already attracted ex-members of our colonial empire, such as the East Africa States, to associateship. It is a mistake to caricature the E.E.C. as just a rich man's club not interested in the problems of the third world. Neither we nor the E.E.C. members have done enough, and I hope that inside Europe we shall do very much more.
In all the opinion polls on the subject of the Common Market I have noticed one very significant feature and it is that there are more in the age group under 35, unlike the rest of the country, wanting to go in than wanting to stay out—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If it is not true of all polls, it is certainly true of all those I have seen. If the word "all" is an exaggeration, I will withdraw it.
I find that opinion is different, and significantly different, in the younger agegroups. I believe that to be a hopeful sign; that it is rightly different because those of the younger generation are thereby saying that if we are serious about some of our wider intentions, such as building up the authority of the U.N., uniting east and west Europe, developing the Ostpolitik and recognising the fact of two Germanys, bringing China in from the cold, and solving potential race conflicts in the world, we must make a start by saying that we are willing to combine sovereignty with our neighbours who are nearest to us geographically, historically, culturally and politically.
I and my party regard this as a political argument first and an economic argument second. If we cannot bring ourselves to advance democratic institutions in the E.E.C., the prospects of the international civilised development of mankind are indeed bleak, and believe that the younger generation would be right to despair, to protest or just to drop out.
